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Author Topic: 2014 Nationals
mattbindon
Jedi
Posts: 182
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Post Re: 2014 Nationals
on: January 13, 2014, 14:38
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All I can add is for those of you out there that are either already boating or thinking of getting into this hobby then the first thing you should do is read the class rules. If you do this before deciding on what boats to build and parts to purchase you will save yourself a lot of time and money.
Cheers Matt

Bruce
Jedi
Posts: 119
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Post Re: 2014 Nationals
on: January 13, 2014, 15:55
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That's the best thing that's been said on this topic (Read the rules)

Bigfishbob
Jedi
Posts: 287
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Post Re: 2014 Nationals
on: January 13, 2014, 19:56
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Finally! a decent debate is allowed to run its course on this forum!
Seems like we need to get some alignment on the objective of the Stock classes.
1. Are we trying to create a level playing field by restricting the engine type to a Zenoah?
2. Or are we trying to create an entry level class for those only with Stock engines?
3. Are we trying t make an entry level class that is less intimidating for newbies?
4. What happens when everybody turns up with their stock engines in their cats and monos then go and do the 5. P2 events with their modded engines?
5. What happens when the guys with only Stock engines go ahead and enter the P2 events to get more time on the water.
6. What have you achieved when the items 5 & 6 happen together? Has the sport really advanced?
7. Will the committee then move to prevent Stock engines running with modded engines in the P2 classes?
8. Are we now introducing Stock engine speed record categories for Cats and Monos?

To me it seems like a duplication of the T1/T2 fiasco, but I guess time will tell.

The trouble with this situation, Bruce and Matt, is that the current rules don't cover Stock Cat and Mono Classes. Simply reading the rules would not prevent somebody running stock RCMKs from not being able to run in these new Stock engine classes.

Tui
Jedi
Posts: 124
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Post Re: 2014 Nationals
on: January 13, 2014, 22:27
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There are specific notes that accompanied the Nats entry form setting out the engine requirement.It is a copy / paste of the T1 engine specs.
We have stuck with Zens only as they have been around longest without change, and by and large is what most people have, and lets be fair, the T1 class has been a great success.
IMHO this stock class stuff is not designed to be entry level stuff for newbies, it is about offering a "relative" spend cap to create a level playing feild at least some where to cater for those that cant invest as much coin in some of this stuff as others do. If they think they have a shot at the other p2 classes with a stock motor, then good luck !
If the fiasco is with T2, then do we drop T2, and those with those boats simply run them in Sport petrol, keep in ming A LOT of guys with T2 boats also have specific Sport Hydro boats as well, so wipes out some thing some where ?! I bet that suggestion will get some bite !! T2 remains the ONLY class where it is specified in the rules that is HAS TO BE a modified motor, and while that is subjective, taken in context of how it was offered, ie that there have been internal and / or performance enhancing modifications where that motor in the same hull as a T1 is going to go A LOT faster ! Take it back to the basics of what was trying to be achieved.
I would suggest that IF these stock classes gather resonable support, then IMHO there is no reason there should not be speed records for them.
This stuff is very much a work in progress, but the basis of it was to try to minimise the impact and advantage of one mans fat wallet vs one of more modest means.
If we dont do this, what do we do, means test new members and tell them they are wasting their time joining the assoc if they dont have the budget for modded motors and the inevitable blow ups ?!!! Or sure, run your stock motors, but prepare to "just be making up the numbers" rather than competing on an even basis with all others.
Sure stock boats can beat modded boats in terms of final results, but only usually due to the demise of the modded boat, if all was as it should be in pure terms, then there is no subtitute for horsepower !

The Ridds
Jedi
Posts: 119
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Post Re: 2014 Nationals
on: January 14, 2014, 08:04
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this has been great reading with some great input from everyone an here just some more. If your going to run stock class in cats;monos;hydros then make these classes P1 an the modded classes up to 27cc in the cats;monos;hydros make that the P2 with no stocks allowed an then the P3 class anything over 27cc just like they have done with the Thunder Boat Class made them T1 an T2anonce that class got sorted out an you couldn't run a stock engine in the T2 class it work well

Bigbird
Moderator
Posts: 322
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Post Re: 2014 Nationals
on: January 14, 2014, 09:55
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Wow what a saga this has turned out to be. One benefit of the of the Zenoah based stock class that nobody has really mentioned is the undoubted quality and reliability of the stock Zenoahs. In glow motor terms read OS max, the Zenoah is the petrol equivalent of OS, not the most powerful motor available but the quality is right up there and as the old saying goes you get what you pay for, so the extra $ spent is paid back over and over, as Steve says 4+ years running with a stock motor and no problems. A no brainer question, what represents the best value for money? And if you need more convincing reflect on the stories of the more powerful cheaper motors mentioned above and inquire deeper, a lot of them just don't have the reliability and durability, I have never owned one of these (just Zenoahs) but I know plenty that do and they have problems getting them to run properly and often have to put Zenoah ignition systems on them to get more reliability once the originals pack up probably pretty much negating the price advantage not to mention the hassle and frustration getting to that point, that may have included the odd blow up to boot.
Please lets run with the committee on this one and not knock a great concept based around a reliable motor package, granted not the cheapest to buy but one that has the best chance of delivering value for money in the long run. Not to mention the often neglected aspect of the hobby being hull development, that is do the work on the total package to get the best out of your hull and get it riding properly without the mindset that putting more power into it will fix all other problems. Getting a boat to run and handle properly is a very satisfying and relatively cheap means of improvement.
This (Zenoah concept)in my mind is the ideal entry level package too, over my involvement with the NZMPBA stretching back some 35 years we have tried and failed many times to get the concept of a simple economical package to get new entrants started, this time it looks like we are on a winner for the first time, yet too many folk are trying to derail it, just read above to see who.
The committee are to be commended for taking on the responsibility of managing classes and rules in general by retiring the remit process that had become nothing more than an annual circus. This is not a dictatorship and anyone that thinks it is has the avenue of offering themselves up for committee duties with a clear mandate of what they want to achieve and test that with the support of the membership at large.
Lets run with the class structure proposed for the Nats and see what happens and then not even consider changing it for a year or two till it has a chance to settle down.
Happy building and see you in Tauranga at Easter.

Bigfishbob
Jedi
Posts: 287
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Post Re: 2014 Nationals
on: January 14, 2014, 23:29
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It's true what you say about the Zen's Pete, most of what's running around the traps in modded form is Zen based, or a Zen Hybrid A few continue to mod RCMKs and others, but they continue to be the minority for lots of reasons including those you have stated.

I also stripped my own Stock Zen last year after 3 years of running, hadn't even changed the ring up to that point. Everything inside was in great condition even the bearings were still smooth. Rock solid entry level engines.

Having said that, even my modded Zen and Quick draw engines have been reliable, most if not all of the issues I've had with them have been a result of my own negligence, not the implied reduced reliability of running a modded engine. I'd suggest that those frequently blowing engines or spending a lot of money keeping a modded engine running, might want to consider using another engine builder.

It's also true to suggest that there's a lot more to a fast boat than just a fast engine. Watched a video the other night of Morgan Plummer's R42 at Tauranga , I think it was last year's NI champs,the boat was way faster than anything else out there. Those R42's are a very quick Hull. Even with Stock engines, I can still see the check book racing brigade(BTW I'm NOT suggesting Morgan is a member of that fraternity)going out and buying the fastest hull and a hundred's of props to have the fastest stock boat as well. It's the nature of competition.

I take issue with your suggestion of those partaking in this discussion as being to derail the committee. The committee is elected by the members to act in the interests of the members and ultimately the organisation. Generating and running conversations such as this is a great way for the membership to discuss new concepts and also for the committee to get feedback about new concepts. This thread so far is doing exactly that.

As part of discussion about the "committee powers" remit for the SGM, I was told that when rule changes are being considered, the committee will publish them for consultation before they're enacted with amendments based on the feedback. The introduction of the stock class has circumvented this promised process already.

Thanks also to Steve for providing more background to the introduction of the stock class.

T2 has two options, get rid of it and retain Petrol Sport hydro in it's current form, or take the likely-more-palatable option of opening it up to any P2 engine. Even that option essentially makes it a restricted Hull P2 hydro class.

The move to stock classes for Mono and Cats effectively adds a half day to the race schedule. A lot of talk in previous years has been about rationalising classes in order to make the nationals fit the four day Easter period. Therefore the addition of these stock classes comes at a "cost" of an extra half day's racing and an extra day's annual leave for particpants.

The final question is how will the committee judge the success of the trial of stock Cat and Mono classes? i.e how will we know the introduction of these classes has been worth it? Will the judgement be based on the number of rookies each year competing in these classes? Or what will be the measure? It seems to me that simply judging it based on the number of class entries alone can be biased by existing competitors simply running their stick engines, or judging by overall Nats entries is subject to yearly variations in attendance.

How will we know we have achieved the objective?

That's all for now.

Damo
Advanced
Posts: 51
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Post Re: 2014 Nationals
on: January 16, 2014, 20:06
Quote

Hi guys,
Great to see a good discussion happening on our forum.
here is my point of view on a few things.
1/ The T2 class should have the engine reg changed to align with the p2 regs , ie any engine up to 27cc ,
2/P2 hydro should only remain as a class untill there are sufficient numbers of gas riggers to form a stand alone class, it is a bit of a double up of a few classes .
3/stock classes, now that's a hard one, the engine regs should definitely be as per T1 , stock zenoah only, in my opinion theseclasses should be introduced to the nats in 2 years time, this would give them a chance to grow (or not) , its gonna add a lot of extra heats to an already busy race schedule , in my opinion adding another day of racing to the nats will almost certainly reduce the number of entries , I for one would struggle to take another day off work.
just my opinion , nothing more nothing less, I think the committees do a great job and I and I'm sure everyone appreciates their efforts.
food for thought anyway.
cheers
Damian. 🙂

Guest
Jedi
Posts: 149
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Post Re: 2014 Nationals
on: January 17, 2014, 08:19
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But electrics are even simpler, just ask Nitro! LMAO.

Guest
Jedi
Posts: 149
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Post Re: 2014 Nationals
on: January 17, 2014, 08:25
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Quote from Tui on January 12, 2014, 13:29
Hi All,.......

.....If petrol classes are this hard, then go glow ! They are simple as !!!!

Cheers, ST

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